Oscar Wilde : Chastity is the greatest form of perversion


LOVE THAT!!  in heated debates with TBM's concerning being homosexual in the church it is said that as long as they don't ACT ON IT being gay is a-ok. That is horific to me, even as a hetero- female, to think that these people are telling someone else they can never have that intimate contact or relationship for a LIFETIME, live a celibate life and you will be rewarded in heaven. wow. The same people saying this are also married and getting it on on a regular basis. Yet they can tell others it is "easy" and you "dont need it" so just live a celibate chaste life and it's all good. *gag*


What are your thoughts, is it realistic to expect anyone to live a life of celibacy? I am single, should I guard my chastity with my life? I know in pretty much every major religion fornication is a sin. Homosexuality is a sin. I am not so sure I am convinced of those "facts"... perhaps I am too liberal??


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Our Mormon friends have tried to convince us that being "too" anything is a great sin.  One of the great pleasures of my recent life has been to read the book "Sex at Dawn." (Amazon.com).  It exposes the "conservative" lies the churches tell us about mens and womens sexual inclinations.  And---oh!---it has opened possibilities to Jessica and me that are absolutely mind boggling.  I have to tell you that we came to many of the conclusions discussed in the book on our own, beforehand.  But secretly it's been interesting to me that there has heretofore been little or no discussion of sexuality at LAM.  To me this is just about the single most important epiphany I've had since leaving the Church.  Being able to deal with the realities of our human natures, without guilt or fear or shame.  I will say that seeing this group "Adult Topics" here at LAM when we first joined the group gave me hope.  It speaks to the insight of our venerated leader.  And now with each post I read here it is like breathing fresh air.  I hope that all my new unchained, liberated former Mormon friends can flock here to this group "Adult Topics" in great numbers and join Jessica and me on our journey to further and greater enlightenment.  I really do.  And I hope we never feel the need to look back.
I definitely agree. Sexuality is a key part of the human experience, and I realize now, looking back, the effects its repression had on me while I still a sheep in the flock.
I love that quote RedLotus.  I think most of the sexual related crimes (from child pornography to rape etc) stem from a general repression of our sexuality by our mostly Christian nation (US) and why more atheistic countries have much lower rates of violent crime involving sex.  At the same time, it is understandable why religion represses sex, as it is such a powerful tool to induce guilt and loyalty to the organization that will "save" them from their guilt, but who ironically is the cause of the guilt in the first place.  An endless and hopeless loop.  I now have a very open view of sex and relationships and am pretty much okay with whatever relationship any consenting number of adults decide to have together so long as contraception and STDs are taken into consideration in a mature manner and all parties are open and honest in their agreements or arrangements.  Some of my thoughts.  Perhaps more will come out as this group grows and explores more.

I think it's interesting that it's only talked about in terms of celibacy.  It is MUCH more than celibacy.  It is a life without the  companionship, intimacy, connection, affection from a romantic partner.  The Church leaders want to make a loving sexual relationship all about the SEX, and less about the LOVE, if it doesn't fit their bill. And, y'know, let me just say that if someone boils my loving relationship down to satisfying a need for sexual gratification, that does not make ME a pervert.  Humans are not meant to live like that, and it can crush someone's spirit to live like that.  Members say "We only ask our gay members to do what we ask our unmarried straight members", but their celibate, unmarried straight members can still have attractions towards others, they can still tell someone they love them, they can go on dates, they can get butterflies, they can flirt, they can share that first kiss, than can hold a romantic interest's hand, they can hold or hug a romantic interest, they can cuddle with a romantic interest, they can profess their love for that romantic interest to the world, they don't have to watch to not "offend" someone who happens to be around them and their romantic interest, and THEY DON'T HAVE TO FEEL GUILTY FOR ANY OF THOSE THINGS.  

I think that in order for something to be wrong, there has to be evidence that it causes legitimate pain to others, without an additional legitimate benefit.  There is a legitimate benefit to living with the people you love, while loving yourself for who you are.  There is not legitimate (legitimate meaning that the pain is based on direct harm) pain in "I don't want to see it around me" or "I don't think you should live like that."  The second is caused by the homophobia around us, not by that person being gay.  

ITA with everything you said Jack. Thank you! 

RedLotus, I agree with you completely. If I'm wrong and there is a god, and he wants homosexual people to live their life carrying the heavy cross that is celibacy, that's a pretty severe and unjust punishment. I want nothing to do with such a god. And if you're single and celibate, you're missing out. I'm not saying that you should give it away freely, but life's rough enough. A good orgasm now and then sure does make it better. Sorry if my tone here seems crass, it's not what I was going for, but I think we need to get over this irrational need to suppress sex and sexuality. When done properly, between consenting adults, it adds spice to life, and if we're letting old traditions and stupid dogma keep it out of our lives, then we're doing ourselves a great disservice.

Once again I will recommend, especially to you that agree with RedLotus and runRobrun, the text Sex at Dawn.  It's not a book about sex, but a sociological/anthropological piece dealing with what the authors consider to be the evolved nature of men and women, as primates, based on sound evidence from our ancestral roots.  Very thorough study and assessment, very compelling.  A major departure from the so-called standard model that has been alive and well since the days of Darwin.  It questions, for instance, the one-man-one-woman version of marriage---based on anthropological science.  There is so much "I feel" nonsense being thrown around these days, it's good to have some solid science to consider.  It has been an absolutely electrifying read for me, dealing with things we know that we don't know we know...because old-line science (and churches)  has too much invested in protecting its turf.

No, you are not! I applaud you for raising the subject. Maybe, I've been there myself as well. Not sure about discussing it too much on a public forum, but if it is a crime, then I've been guilty!

Be interested to go a little deeper into the topic, if you wish.


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