During this last Fast and Testimony meeting, someone spoke about how during a recent fireside in Reading, England, Elder Bednar challenged all of the Young Single Adults. He asked them to take a cheap Book of Mormon, and start highlighting all of the places where Grace has been extended by the Saviour.

 

This can only be good, can't it?

 

And then he gave examples of what he meant. The primary example he quoted was when the Saviour strengthened Nephi so that he could get the plates, and still obey.

 

I know that this is possibly part of the Grace of God, but is the Mormon Church the only place that could take the biggest single most important part of the Good News, and relegate it to being a tool to help us be more obedient?

 

Am I over-reacting here?

 

Cheers,

Toy Soldier

Views: 496

Replies to This Discussion

Nope, you are correct.

It was not until I started to attend a United Methodist Church that I learned about Grace. In Mormonism Grace is earned. The concept of the free gift from Christ is against the Mormon concept of earning ever thing you can. The idea that Christ truly died to save us is too easy for Mormons.

My love for Christ is because of his free offering and his wanting me to accept it and follow him as I am able.

Grace is really not part of Mormon doctrine.

Grace be with you,

Gene 

Hi Gene Snow

Grace is not earned and I have never been taught that in almost 50 years in the church. I never taught that as a missionary; quorum president, high priest group leader, bishop or high counselor. I don't know if the USA TBM are different from us in Scotland, but that has never been part of my teaching through primary, youth, or adult church life.

I am just adding some stuff that I was discussing with krenee500 and Sarah J, as the different threads are spreading out and I don't know who will be following which thread.

So here goes:

With reference I was given below, I did some research. Sometimes things can be overcomplicated or under simplified. However in order to understand things there has to be a common baseline which I dont think we have. You have one baseline and I another. Hopefully I wont assume what your baseline is and I would hope that you have similar respect. My understanding of where works fits in and what you may be assuming it is unclear, but I see it as part of necessary but not sufficient for being saved, as at the end of the day, we can only be saved by grace even after all we can do, So I have the following for you to look at: all from the bible, as I really love the bible too, especially the New Testament. Some food for thought on how simple it all is.

http://www.scottseverance.us/ministry/hebrews_6_4-6.html

So after reading this I will summarise: people can accept the Saviour’s grace, be saved and serve faithfully. They can at some point encounter situations, be disaffected and fall away. If that falling away continues to the point that they in effect return like a dog to its vomit and make mockery of Christ’s sacrifice and they do not repent and rectify with Christ, then grace is not effective in their lives. For those who do repent and reengage Christ into their lives as said in

Matthew (24:13)

13 But he that shall aendure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So basically we will be saved by Grace if we endure to the end: if we stay faithful to Christ.

This is exactly what the scripture means,

Nephi 25:23  “we are saved by grace after all we can do”: if we endure to the end: if we stay faithful to Christ. If we follow the works of Christ (the living works of salvation) and not the dead works of salvation under the law of Moses.

 

What are the words directly from Christ on being saved before he left the apostles that reflected what his first priority was to bring new converts and must be of the upmost importance?

Mark 16:14 – 20.

(Saved by belief and baptism (baptism is necessary for new believers: but not sufficient)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 19 ¶So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Also

Mathew 28:16-20 :

Saved by belief and baptism and observing the commandments and enduring to the end (Baptism is necessary for new believers: but not sufficient. Observing the commandments is necessary for believers: but not sufficient. Enduring to the end is necessary for believers: but not sufficient)

 16 ¶Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

Ephesians 2:8 :  (Saved by Grace through faith)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 

 

James 2:14-22

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

2 Timothy 3:16–17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

So we are saved by baptism, by grace, faith and works, enduring to the end. Since anyone can fall from grace so to speak, the only thing that you can honestly say is that I have given myself to Christ I am his and hope to remain his. If I follow him and love him enough to keep his commandments, living the works of Christ and not the dead works that Christ has fulfilled, then after all the Christ like works that I have done to show my love for Christ, it is only by his grace that I will then be saved.

Grace is the only sufficient quality to save us, but it only applies as we follow the Saviour, starting with: faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So I will repeat the scripture which is entirely in line with the New Testament doctrine:

Nephi 25:23  “we are saved by grace after all we can do”: if we endure to the end: if we stay faithful to Christ. If we follow the works of Christ (the living works of salvation) and not the dead works of salvation under the law of Moses.

I don’t see any good works as a problem. It is not right to make people feel guilty, but good works are important as demonstrating our faith in Christ.

Grace is not earned under any amount of good works.

You are very correct.  I have had a discussion with a TBM friend on the subject of grace.  It was the idea of grace that missing in my life, and it took awhile to finally open up the New Testament and see for myself what grace really is.  The church teaches grace through the eyes of the church, not of what Jesus says about it.  And Paul was an excellent teacher on what grace is, but as a TBM I would have never known that.

What is a TBM?

True believing Mormon

Hi Guys, I hope its alright to join in your discussion.

I have been struggling with my activity since my family breakup and stuff and actually trying to build my faith up again.

I am not really too sure what you mean by:

"The idea that Christ truly died to save us is too easy for Mormons." and "Grace is really not part of Mormon doctrine."

I have always been brought up in the church to believe the it is the grace of Jesus Christ that saves us all. Grace to me has always been part of mormon doctrine, so I dont really understand the problem. Do they teach a different gospel in America than they do in Scotland?

I also feel that all good people of faith regardless of their religion, will eventually choose the side of the Saviour when it comes to that great divide and battle with satan, for they will see with a lot more clarity since evil is becoming more obvious and blatant.

The idea of grace in the LDS faith waters down the meaning of grac

Hi krenee5000

It still haven't really understood the problem. On my mission I met lots of Christians who told me that they were saved and that it did not matter what they did, they had been saved.So is that the case that once a person confesses their sins and accepts Christ as their Saviour that they are saved, they are then free to do anything they want? I actually find that insulting to the sacrifice that Christ made for us all. I have been taught that Christ's sacrificed his life for me, his gift to me. I do not pay for it, I cannot earn it, it is beyond price. He has said "if ye love me keep my commandments". If I become a backslider as my love for him fades, does his grace still save me? If I return like a "dog to his vomit", does his grace still save me?

So if "grace is completely free, no strings attached", anyone can sincerely repent and confess and be saved, then if they somewhere down the line encounter some difficulties and loose their faith to the point they backslide to return like a "dog to his vomit", would they still be saved by grace?

If they them commit horrific crimes, like rape; murder; pedophilia, would they still be saved by grace? Would that be a just God?

So please help me to understand what free grace means.

I would say yes to all.  Only because we are given the Holy Spirit who convicts us (not condemns).  The further we learn who Christ is and fall more in love with him then that conviction makes us want to be more obedient.  Remember, he came to fulfill the law not abolish it.  So the law is there but only as a reminder that we need him.  

I recently fell hard.  Something that would have gotten me disfellowshipped as a mormon.  But it wasn't the Bishop that stopped me from sinning, it was the conviction that I knew I broke God's heart.  And He STILL showed me mercy and grace, and I was not living worthy of the Holy Ghost.  This only made me fall more in love with Christ.  The whole experience was like being a child.  You don't break the rules because its wrong, but because it disappoints the very people you trust and love the most.  I never had to work for my moms grace ever, even if I was "dog to his vomit".  And if God's love is infinity times more loving, then why wouldn't he give it freely despite how sinful my nature is once I recognized Him as my Savior?

Lastly, when you are "born again", as mentioned above, Christ abides in you.  Sin is inevitable.  Is there really a degree?  For we all fall short of the glory of God.  We are only made perfect in Him.  No matter how gross your sin is, He still claims you through grace.  "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin:  He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the Spirit."  

Thus, all you have to do once you sin is ask forgiveness with your own distinct relationship with God.  Because once Christ fulfilled the law, He made an immediate channel to Him.  

So what if they do not repent this time from rape; murder; pedophilia?

Hi krenee5000

Enjoyed the reference.

http://www.scottseverance.us/ministry/hebrews_6_4-6.html

So after reading this I will summarise: people can accept the Saviour’s grace, be saved and serve faithfully. They can at some point encounter situations, be disaffected and fall away. If that falling away continues to the point that they in effect return like a dog to its vomit and make mockery of Christ’s sacrifice and they do not repent and rectify with Christ, then grace is not effective in their lives. For those who do repent and reengage Christ into their lives as said in Matthew (24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So basically we will be saved by Grace if we endure to the end: if we stay faithful to Christ.

This is exactly what the scripture means, Nephi 25:23 “we are saved by grace after all we can do”: if we endure to the end: if we stay faithful to Christ. If we follow the works of Christ (the living works of salvation) and not the dead works of salvation under the law of Moses.

2 Timothy 3:16–17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

What are the words directly from Christ on being saved before he left the apostles that reflected what his first priority was to bring new converts and must be of the upmost importance?

Mark 16:14 - 20

14 ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 19 ¶So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Also Mathew 28:16-20

 16 ¶Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And

Thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:17).

So before Jesus taught new convert people about being saved by grace, they had to be saved by baptism. After being baptised then came the importance to know that even though they do all the wonderful works of Christ, that it is only by his grace that we are saved.

This is my understanding of being saved. I was baptised as a young child, demonstrating my faith by following the works of Christ and doing what he asked me to do. I accepted him as my Saviour and lived what I felt was a Christ like life. I have had my problems, but trying to get myself on track again. It feels good to me, so as long as I feel that I am trying to follow my Saviour that is all I can do.

I am enjoying the various views and comments.

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