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Permalink Reply by Idaho Spud on August 14, 2011 at 6:55am

Can't remember having any huge shockers.

Probably the biggest would be after I left and came on LAM.  I never knew until then about all the versions of the first vision.

I'm constantly getting shocks here as I'm made aware of the BS, cover-ups, deceptions, and changes of doctrine.

Before coming here, the shock that convinced me it was all a fairy tale was studying evolution.  It was a shock to find-out how logical and easy to understand it was.  It was a shock to see the mountains of evidence that proved beyond any reasonable doubt that we came to be by natural selection and not by creation.

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Permalink Reply by pollypinks on August 14, 2011 at 7:49am

The thing that really craps me out as a continuing christian believer is how so many can throw the evolution baby out with the bath water.  I see no reason why the two cannot exist.  The southern baptist convention threw Jimmy Carter out because he has reconciled certain aspects of evolution in with his faith.  Blew my mind, after all he's done around the world tor the past three decades, all the hard work, when he could have been laying around on his ass doing nothing.  They go off and kick him out, and he's still teaching Sunday school when he's in town.  It's this kind of judgement that really bugs me.  Way too much vitriol in our world, and way too little action for those in need.  And I know some of you are in need, and If I could, I'd help.

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Permalink Reply by Liber Mens on November 8, 2011 at 10:59pm

I think the threat is that once you allow the scientific method to be seen as the method for discovering truth and understanding the world, churches dont have control. They lose the power that comes with the claim "We have the only path to truth and salvation"...

Religion always leads to judgment, because it focuses on group membership instead of humanity. Where I live Hindus and Muslims and Christians all stick to their own groups and Gods and I often wonder, why dont they join forces to help all of humanity? They are all equally faithful and claim the same values of compassion, help for the needy, etc. But ultimately, they cant do that, beause each group's religious texts or traditions claim that the other one is going to hell for believing in the wrong God. Especially the Christian and Muslim groups. Its the very nature of their religious texts.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Utley on August 14, 2011 at 3:28pm

Many shocks, but one of the first was when a friend of mine---a former bodyguard for four of the Church presidents---told me story after story about what kind of man Tom Monson actually is in private, behind the scenes, when he's tending to the day-to-day business of the Church...and the way he actually treats other people when nobody but the grunts are looking on.  Not a pretty picture.  Not a picture of a man that has the confidence of a prophet---or at least what I would hope a true prophet had---basically a somewhat petty, angry man.  I went so far as to write a comment to the Deseret News when President Hinckley died, suggesting that he, Tom Monson, the pretender to the throne, ought to seriously consider recusing himself because of his less than Christlike demeanor.  Of course, that went over like a lead balloon.  Then there was  what Michael Quinn had to say about the actual manner of the decision of the Brethren to discontinue polygamy, and its aftermath...and the treatment of Quinn, himself.  These two "shockers," among the thousands and thousands of problems with Mormonism that have convinced me over and over, were pretty big departures on the part of the Mormon Church from suitable behavior (for all the good they do) for someone claimant to the "only true and living church on the face of the earth.  To which rank they sadly don't even hold a candle---if such exists at all.

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Permalink Reply by Bo on August 14, 2011 at 5:24pm

Brian, please do tell us about Monson and Quinn. I would love to hear this.

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Permalink Reply by MamaCthulhu on August 14, 2011 at 5:13pm

One of my 'ah hah' moments was thinking of the years in primary having the kids sing about 'priesthood power' and RS talking about how a 12 year old has more power than the Pope and the marvelous priesthood blessings, etc.  Through a ton of research there is NOT ONE BIT about Melchezidek/Aaronic priesthood as described by the lds cult.  It existed, but it in no way resembles the cults boast.  I was surprised that there are FEMALE PROPHETS in the bible.  I was surprised in the 1800s women gave blessings but then that 'right' was taken away.  Finally, all the brainwashing that penisholders from 12 up have dramatically greater connections to God, that female prayers are inferior and if you have some really big issues going, to not trust your own prayers but you gotta call your HT's over to do a 'man's job prayer'.  

My female prayers are just as good as anyone elses.

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Permalink Reply by Bo on August 14, 2011 at 5:32pm

I'm still searching and haven't quite left yet. But the biggest thing for me was the one thing the LDS church lives (and dies) by, which is Joseph Smith. There can be not one thing that is true about this church if JS is a fraud, not one. I am 38 and I'm just now finding out about all of this. How can this be? How could I be born in this church, be baptized, serve a mission (which was a total waste of time), get married in the temple, and be married for 14 years before finding all of this out? I suppose that's my biggest shocker of all. The search continues.

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Permalink Reply by denise c on August 14, 2011 at 11:56pm

Bo--at 38, you are at a perfect age to start living your own authentic life.  It's not easy when you consider family, friends, and community, but it is definitely worth it.  Good luck in your search for your own truth!

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Permalink Reply by Liber Mens on November 8, 2011 at 11:06pm

I have so much respect for the people here who dare to seek truth and question what they have been taught by authorities and people they love. Cognitive dissonance is not easy to face, especially when it means potentially disappointing your famiky and separating from your community. But authenticity is the only way to genuine hapiness. Good luck to you!

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Permalink Reply by Liber Mens on November 8, 2011 at 11:08pm

Very good point.

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Permalink Reply by pollypinks on August 15, 2011 at 9:08am

I've gotta have specifics about Monson. This one is too juicy to pass up.  My father just worships that man.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Utley on August 15, 2011 at 1:30pm

A couple of things about Monson that won't break confidences:  My friend said that In private he is a very "hard" man...in much the same way that my father was "hard," I suspect, in that my father was something of a tyrant.  Monson is rude to drivers and secretaries.  He acts like he is on the "edge" of loosing his temper...easily provoked.  Argumentative.  Perhaps like a man that is trying to run faster than his legs will carry him.  Like a victim of the Peter Principle...in that he often appears to have been promoted beyond his ability...in private (so he resorts to overlord-sim.). 

 

I asked the Lord once about what my friend was telling me and the Lord said (and I quote):  "They (speaking of Monson and other of the leading men in Church leadership )are proud, arrogant men that have their own agendas that often  run counter to my own.  They are not inspired men such as the members of the Mormon Church think they are, and they do little to correct these false impressions.  They are strong administrators, within the limits of their order, but are not spiritual men.  I scarcely know them."  Quote, unquote...(written down by me at the time)...but, then, that's just me saying...right?  (Ask the Gods yourselves....asking the right questions to get the right answers, of course.) 

 

Upon reflection:  To me such actions as my friend described are tantamount to the Brethren lying...to create misleading false impressions.  Just as they lie about the Church and Church history with impunity, they also lie about themselves.  So they can appear like pillars of righteousness to the troops...or at least that's what I think.  My friend did say that he'd been sworn to secrecy, literally, about what went on in the homes of the Leaders, and in their hospital rooms, and in their meetings, and in their unguarded moments.  But my friend summarized that these men's lives were lies, without really saying it.  Although, I should mention that he was quick to praise  Elder Faust as a truly Christlike man.  I don't know...maybe my friend really liked him or something.   And he did excuse them to a point by telling me that most of the Brethren were "old" men with many of the trials and pains of sick, old men.  And maybe this is something of an excuse for their general cantakerousness and their being grouchy and acting short with underlings.  Also, he described Elder Eyring as the "coldest fish" he'd ever met (quite a different picture than the man's public persona).

 

My friend went on to tell me that most of these men, including Monson, are under the influence of celebrity-itis.  Which probably is similar to being proud.  So many of them are related, because they actually believe that the privilege of leadership really is in the "blood." 

 

(These are ideas and suspicions that appear in other places in the anecdotal literature and tradition of the Church...much of it available on the internet.  But for me to hear it from the horses mouth, so to speak, was quite a shocker  (noting that my friend had been involuntarily retired from the Church's "secret service" because he had a seizure at one point---although his disclosure were not made with bitterness or rancor....just the quiet unburdening to a friend).

 

You can find out what happened to Michael Quinn by reading about him and his credible history books on the Internet.  Much of his description of how the Brethren arrived at the decision regarding the practice of plural marriage and the discontinuation is there.  Great read.  A story of trouble men and troubling lies.

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