To preface I would just like to add that this is a difficult topic to articulate so I will do my best. 

 

As I have many friends and family members still in the Church I am finding it very frustrating to keep their wish of remaining silent and supportive of their decisions. Said silence is supposedly the quintessential display of "tolerance" in our society, a permission of religion.   

 

If you look up the definition of tolerance you can actually find many widely varying definitions. Most are as follows:

"a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices,  race,  religion,

  nationality, etc.,differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry."

Notice how the definition here assumes that the two parties differ by opinion, not fact. To me, the Church is more than harmless opinions. It is mobile, it hurts, it steals, it deceives, it knocks on doors and judges. In this case it is not a difference of opinion but of fact. Facts which one party (mormons) refuse to acknowledge.  Tolerance in this case and by such a definition cannot be defined. What then is tolerance?


To further illustrate imagine a kkk headquarters next to a mormon church. It may be socially acceptable for the surrounding community to oust the kkk but not the mormon church. Both are racist by definition (a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement). If you need more info on the topic read 2nd Nephi and many other church publications. Yet in the end the mormon church remains as it is more cunning and less physical about its racism then the kkk. 

I personally don't feel there are shades of gray to racism. Racism is racism no matter how you view it.

So in this context are we supposed to remain tolerant until the point which racism becomes physical and violent? 

 

I realize that there is nothing I can say, nor any fact I can present to change anyones views. What I have come to realize, because that church has the capacity to hurt and deceive people outside its doors, it is wrong to remain silent. 

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I think bullying in the playground is a perfect example of what I was originally trying to illustrate. I've seen some pretty crazy youtube videos of kids bullying others, it is physical and violent. Again its more then a mere opinion so i'de have to side with the group making it illegal. 

It should be illegal.  But taking a three year old to court for saying something nasty isn't going to work.  I've never forgotten the ill treatment of my biracial children in our ward by the bishop's blonde haired blue eyed teenage daughters.  And there were zero repercussions over it.

It is illegal. What they do is very illegal. But they have every thing all lined up and people in the right places to keep it going... There is no Tolerance in the LDS. There is a con for the people who don't know better, and they are taught all the right lies to tell non-Mormons, to suck them in. 


People aren't use to a religious garment being underwear.. A lot of people think of a religious garment or item being out where it can be seen... Not something that should be hidden... When people learn about things in religion beliefs that are secret or hidden it makes them want to know why and become suspicious of the reasons behind all the secrets and hidden things and teachings ... 


But no one really uses the word garment for underwear....  It is the year 2012.... So here comes terms like Magic underwear and Holy underwear... It is the but of many jokes... pun intended ... What about Mitt Romney’s magic underwear?... Like Jimmy Carter and the peanuts and so many more jokes about all of our past and future leaders to be ... There will be bad and good jokes.... But we will be called an idiot and a bigot, by the Mormon church members... Tolerance?..... It is a one way street for this so called church... They stand up for freedom of speach ... as long as you agree with them... this is not freedom... It is truth mixed with a lie.. that is called a con .... 


You can now be gay and in the church... they have a more messed up rule than our miltary.... don't ask don't tell... please ... you can be gay as long as you don't act out on it ... don't have a mate of the same sex and don't talk about it... again a con.. a little truth with a big old lie mixed in.. This is ...Tolerance?... 


You can be black and be in the church.. but don't worry, you will be white when you die.. like us... So don't act black or push for any black movement.... Act as if your white so you can be white in heaven.. another con lie mixed in with truth... 


Oh and a woman ... the bigest disrespect of all of Gods children and the mormon men feed off this... you need a man to get into heaven... please .... A con .. lies mixed in truth...


Hear is one true fact that gets to the women I have dealt with and drives the men nuts..... Women give birth to the world ....


Men owe there very life to a long line of women. 99% of the time the things you like about your self you learned from your first and for most teacher ... A woman ... Mother ... You got to be born because of her, She taught you, to eat, speak, to walk, love, to dress your self, to share, to tell the truth and so on....


Fathers back up these teachings.... But mom's are our world first teachers... No one should ever treat a women less, because God gave her the best gift human kind can get... But men who soul existence was left in the hand of a woman. This is to scary for some men and they have to control woman...


Reading the bible... Angles came to women to tell them about special children would be born... they didn't go to there husbands... Men were left out of the Godly chats... It was the woman who told the men what was going to happen... Men back then respected the woman and heard her words... Catholic men of the church and Mormon men of the church, can't and could not deal with this fact...


They try and teach women, we are under them ... please ... jealousy of women's closeness with God has lead men to control them... No man had anything to do with the most important birth of our religion's belief's... Marry was told what was going on... By Gods will ... God didn't go to her soon to be mate (a man) and tell him or to Marry's father ... No man was needed for her to be with child....


Man had no control of Marry or the baby... only Marry and God ... It took the man ... haveing a fit for Gods angles to talk to him.. He had to ask God for the chat... His faith was not stroge enough and he needed Gods angles to soften his  jealousy and ego... He questioned Gods acts... Marry seemed worried she would not be good enough for the child of God... true mothers heart...


This should tell men something ... Women are the greatest gift God has given men... but men's egos are fragile... Women want to be there partners as it should be.... But men want control and use women using religion's belief's that they twist and interpret every thing to lead us to believe we are low... why? jealousy .. even angles fell from heaven over that little sin.... jealousy....


You need no man to speak with God or angles of God ... Women have been doing it since Eve and Adam .... you need no man to be important to God .... You need a man's seed for a family, and a man needs a woman's egg and body to carry a baby for a family... Men need more than a woman needs... but men's egos are fragile... Some need to feel all powerful and forgot that woman was made to be his partner, the giver of life, and his partner, mate, and friend .... She is to be respected loved and cherished .... The worst part woman have given into this false teaching and let men fall .... With out woman.. no man would walk the earth... We (woman) give birth to the world...

I think that the Mormon church believes "they" are tolerant of others, but I have come to feel that it is more of a judgement that they are passing rather than true tolerance.  After I joined the church, I was told that we should be tolerant because, "they don't have the truth, they don't know that what they're doing is wrong, etc."  I find this extremely condescending and in turn, judgemental.  But, of course, all Mormons know that they're the only ones with the big picture - the truth.  Well, I am probably not even asnwering this in the way you were asking, but I think that Mormons are not truly tolerant, they're just a judgemental and often hypocritical.  Of course, I am tolerant of them because I know that generally speaking, I have never met a Mormon who is deliberately trying to hurt others through their religion - they just have a distorted view of life as a result of growing up or converting into it.  It's hard for them to think outside of the box.  So, I say don't pretend to be someone you're not - the mantra I came to believe in as a convert was that "we" tolerate but share the real truth.  Everyone should do that and Mormons need to accept it from others as easily as they dish it out.

I've lived long enough to be witness to the south's indifference to hanging blacks from front yard trees, and doing nothing about it.  Churches in the south banned blacks from attending services, yet, pronounced Christianity.  While we have come a very long way from those times, I do say that racism is alive and well, physical violence is alive and well, and because employers can give a variety of reasons for not hiring someone, it's alive and well in the work place.  I had a good friend, who graduated with a Master's in teaching in Chicago in the late 60's.  Her room mate was a black woman with a Master's in business administration.  The black woman spent two years traversing the country looking for work in her field, and wound up spending the next 10 years as a house keeper.  First, she was black, and second, she was a woman.

I had a thought: the next time an elder tries to proselytize to me I will respond thusly: "I find you are arrogant and judgmental with a distinct lack of tolerance toward other religions. To me, this is repugnant and racist. Be gone will you!"

Ready your reasoning about the Mormons, I agree; they teach racism.

I realize I'm a couple of months or so behind this post, but my feelings on racism are huge.  First, I have two biracial children who, in these times, have been the recipients of racial slurs at the mormon church.  Secondly, it is never okay to teach your children to be silent about this issue.  You know the families.  Just be quiet and mind your own business type.  This is a subject I was repeatedly called out on at church, because just because back in the 70'd they gave the blacks the priesthood, doesn't mean they have a clue as to how most of the members react to it.  The real test is this:  Would you accept your daughter marrying a black man?  Or, as a teen, dating one?  Because once they opened the door for the priesthood, all other issues were off the table.  Period.  Temple marriages, brown, yes, I mean brown colored babies, oh my God, can you imagine such horror, and just think about the work sheets for genealogy?  Wow.

Tolerance is a frustrating and sometimes ridiculous topic for me when it comes to the Mormons, for the simple reason that I find them to be some of the most heavily indocrinated and intolerant people that I have ever encountered in my life. A perfect example of this would be to go to a local sacrament in downtown Provo Utah and smoke a cigarette just outside the front door. As you toke away (25 feet from the building, as per the Utah Clean Air Act) say hello to the members as they enter the church. If you were to actually do this, you would be given the most incredible series of incredulous and angry stares, as well as a continually varies sequence of muttered judgements and general condemnation. Feel free to enter the meeting, but don't expect any of the members to actually sit near you, or allow you to be seated near them. I have often wondered what Christ himself would say to his many, Utah followers who behave more like a ridiculous adolscent self righteous klik, than actual followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

This is merely scratching the surface of what it is like to attempt to leave the church, especially if you have been born into its ranks. You can fully expect to sacrifice both friends and family in your new search for free thinking and moral truth.

I do not mean to paint a picture of fear and despair, there is also a lot of happiness, community, and love on the outside of the church, but I would be a fool not to acknowledge the difficulty of that transition.

So, my conclusion is this. I tolerate the members of the church, meaning I allow them to believe and practice with no interference from me. I do my utmost to be moral in my friendship and acceptance of them and their faith.

What I do not tolerate is descrimination or bullying of any kind. I do not allow them to judge me or my family. I will never let them teach my children or try to sway them before they are old enough to decide their own path. I do not tolerate their arrogant letters and conversations designed to "call me to repentence". I do not allow them to pray with me, or to try and get me to pray.

Above all, I resist their attempts to re-unite church and state with all of my focus and effort. I fight them on Proposition 8. I fight them on the teaching of abstinence in schools, or the removal of school sex education programs all together. I fight them when they try to teach Creationism in school and call it science.

 I believe in tolerance, but I also believe in my own personal integrity, and standing up for my beliefs.

There is just no denying that the Mormon Church has an incredible amount of money and man power and they are doing their utmost to influence the laws and politics of America. When it comes down to that, my tolerance goes right out the window.

 

 

 

Christopher, You hit the nail exactly where it belongs, on the head, but it's not just mormonism.  It's alot of issues, places, people, judgements, and evangelism is actually worse in many aspects than mormonism.  You know, the ones holding up signs on the side of the road meant to cause accidents, meant to make women who've had abortions want to kill themselves, meant to create havoc in the minds of those who have never had a thought concerning hell, and the fact that these people can judge for themselves that A., there is one, and B., they know exactly who's going there.  They also know for a fact that all disasters, natural or otherwise, are caused by homosexuality in our country.  And now, they have emptied the gun stores with the latest events in Washington, so that they can mow you down if you look at them wrong.  Now don't everybody on the list jump on my middle aged ass about that remark, because I have no qualms with the NRA, or people's rights to own guns. It was interesting when my husband took a concealed weapons class that the instructor spent at least half the class doing mock dancing of homosexuals, talking in silly voices to portray them, making point after point at their expence.  I called the store, Cabela's the next day to ask if homosexuals were allowed to own guns in my town, and they were blown away by his behavior.  We all have our issues with tolerance that we need to work on, and I need to give this man his due respect for his knowledge, and 30 years badgering people while working on the police force.

Polly,

I always enjoy reading your remarks. I think if you didn't dislike me so much, we might be good friends :).

Bar Kokhba

My view of tis is basic.  Most of my life is centered in things boiled down to their basic least complicated components.  Life is simple.

  Tolerance is what you feel when Salt Lake is using a guilt trip on you to get your money, your actions or your family.  Tolerance is what we do when they place theological arguments that we know deep down in our mind (note i said ~mind) as they shove it in our shorts.  Tolerance is what you do when you tolerate.  Tolerate others but you have to take it and be tolerant.  Nope, take your damned tolerance and pray about it.  I will be a leader in my own life and they can keep their damned tolerance..

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