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What is Tolerance?
To preface I would just like to add that this is a difficult topic to articulate so I will do my best.
As I have many friends and family members still in the Church I am finding it very frustrating to keep their wish of remaining silent and supportive of their decisions. Said silence is supposedly the quintessential display of "tolerance" in our society, a permission of religion.
If you look up the definition of tolerance you can actually find many widely varying definitions. Most are as follows:
"a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion,
nationality, etc.,differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry."
Notice how the definition here assumes that the two parties differ by opinion, not fact. To me, the Church is more than harmless opinions. It is mobile, it hurts, it steals, it deceives, it knocks on doors and judges. In this case it is not a difference of opinion but of fact. Facts which one party (mormons) refuse to acknowledge. Tolerance in this case and by such a definition cannot be defined. What then is tolerance?
To further illustrate imagine a kkk headquarters next to a mormon church. It may be socially acceptable for the surrounding community to oust the kkk but not the mormon church. Both are racist by definition (a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement). If you need more info on the topic read 2nd Nephi and many other church publications. Yet in the end the mormon church remains as it is more cunning and less physical about its racism then the kkk.
I personally don't feel there are shades of gray to racism. Racism is racism no matter how you view it.
So in this context are we supposed to remain tolerant until the point which racism becomes physical and violent?
I realize that there is nothing I can say, nor any fact I can present to change anyones views. What I have come to realize, because that church has the capacity to hurt and deceive people outside its doors, it is wrong to remain silent.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dan on
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To me tolerance is allowing another to practice their beliefs as long as they do not try to force their beliefs on to another.
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Permalink Reply by BlueCodeRed on -
excellent definition.
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Permalink Reply by BlueCodeRed on
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Tolerance is a hard thing to peg. I'm trying to constantly remain sensitive to my still LDS friends that I love, but still I feel that at times I should/ need to show my disagreement with certain points. I try to tread lightly because in reality they aren't gonna want to hear much. I can say I disagree, but not hit them with everything I've learned b/c that just come across as anti which doesn't go over too well.
So tolerance to me is respecting that they believe differently then I do. As long as they don't infringe on my rights or the rights of others (I am very vocal about things like gay marriage, history of racism, etc, that was true even when I was a TBM).
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Permalink Reply by Liber Mens on
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I hear you, sometimes the conflict isnt worth it. However, I do think the "hurt feelings" is a cop out that people use to justify their cognitive dissonance. Its not you hurting their "feelings" in other words, its the inconsistency of their beliefs with reality that is uncomfortable. The discomfrt is translated as hurt feelings. But I thunk confrontation demonstrates respect for a person, it shows you have confidence that they are strong and mature enough to handle honesty.
I have noticed an undercurrent in Mormon culture that looks down upon conflict and anger. What is tat about? Anger and conflict can be very healthy!
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Permalink Reply by BlueCodeRed on
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True. Whatever happened to "you can choose whether you're offended [or not]"? ;-)
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Permalink Reply by Xiban on -
Tolerance is about real love for mankind...real love is about respect the others for how they are and not for what they are.
The only thing I'm not tolerant about is for people, countries or institutions who don't respect Human Rights.
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Permalink Reply by Sari on -
Well, that is the whole paradox of the LDS church. I am no longer a member but my family and friends are. I respect their choice to live their lives they way they do but I can't seem to get that same respect back when I chose to live my life the way I do. Funny since they preach that they are a perfect people who live by the "new commandment' Love One Another as I have loved you...that song and scripture are missing a few word...something along the lines of "Love one another so long as they are living the way the LDS think they should!!"
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Permalink Reply by pollypinks on -
Tolerance is a learned thing. We aren't born with it. Over the past 24 years since leaving the church, I've gone from being just darned pissed off, saddened, and now "tolerant" of my 90 year old dad's faith in the church. Perhaps more than tolerant, as he finds daily activities and ways to serve others that give him purpose, so I am happy for him. Ten years ago I wouldn't have said that. Last week Focus On The Family refused to support legislation that would make bullying illegal. Not the playground antics we all live with, but the stuff that makes teens kill themselves. This, because they'd have to become tolerant of gays and lesbians, and wouldn't be able to trash them in public like they love to do. But something in me says being tolerant of even that group is better than sitting around being pissed off. Tolerance from Webster" to respect the conduct, opinions, beliefs, etc. of others without sitting in judgment on them. To be able to take a drug without suffering harmful effects . ( Marijuana?)
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Permalink Reply by hamsonb on
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I think bullying in the playground is a perfect example of what I was originally trying to illustrate. I've seen some pretty crazy youtube videos of kids bullying others, it is physical and violent. Again its more then a mere opinion so i'de have to side with the group making it illegal.
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Permalink Reply by pollypinks on
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It should be illegal. But taking a three year old to court for saying something nasty isn't going to work. I've never forgotten the ill treatment of my biracial children in our ward by the bishop's blonde haired blue eyed teenage daughters. And there were zero repercussions over it.
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Permalink Reply by Trisha on -
It is illegal. What they do is very illegal. But they have every thing all lined up and people in the right places to keep it going... There is no Tolerance in the LDS. There is a con for the people who don't know better, and they are taught all the right lies to tell non-Mormons, to suck them in.
People aren't use to a religious garment being underwear.. A lot of people think of a religious garment or item being out where it can be seen... Not something that should be hidden... When people learn about things in religion beliefs that are secret or hidden it makes them want to know why and become suspicious of the reasons behind all the secrets and hidden things and teachings ...
But no one really uses the word garment for underwear.... It is the year 2012.... So here comes terms like Magic underwear and Holy underwear... It is the but of many jokes... pun intended ... What about Mitt Romney’s magic underwear?... Like Jimmy Carter and the peanuts and so many more jokes about all of our past and future leaders to be ... There will be bad and good jokes.... But we will be called an idiot and a bigot, by the Mormon church members... Tolerance?..... It is a one way street for this so called church... They stand up for freedom of speach ... as long as you agree with them... this is not freedom... It is truth mixed with a lie.. that is called a con ....
You can now be gay and in the church... they have a more messed up rule than our miltary.... don't ask don't tell... please ... you can be gay as long as you don't act out on it ... don't have a mate of the same sex and don't talk about it... again a con.. a little truth with a big old lie mixed in.. This is ...Tolerance?...
You can be black and be in the church.. but don't worry, you will be white when you die.. like us... So don't act black or push for any black movement.... Act as if your white so you can be white in heaven.. another con lie mixed in with truth...
Oh and a woman ... the bigest disrespect of all of Gods children and the mormon men feed off this... you need a man to get into heaven... please .... A con .. lies mixed in truth...
Hear is one true fact that gets to the women I have dealt with and drives the men nuts..... Women give birth to the world ....
Men owe there very life to a long line of women. 99% of the time the things you like about your self you learned from your first and for most teacher ... A woman ... Mother ... You got to be born because of her, She taught you, to eat, speak, to walk, love, to dress your self, to share, to tell the truth and so on....
Fathers back up these teachings.... But mom's are our world first teachers... No one should ever treat a women less, because God gave her the best gift human kind can get... But men who soul existence was left in the hand of a woman. This is to scary for some men and they have to control woman...
Reading the bible... Angles came to women to tell them about special children would be born... they didn't go to there husbands... Men were left out of the Godly chats... It was the woman who told the men what was going to happen... Men back then respected the woman and heard her words... Catholic men of the church and Mormon men of the church, can't and could not deal with this fact...
They try and teach women, we are under them ... please ... jealousy of women's closeness with God has lead men to control them... No man had anything to do with the most important birth of our religion's belief's... Marry was told what was going on... By Gods will ... God didn't go to her soon to be mate (a man) and tell him or to Marry's father ... No man was needed for her to be with child....
Man had no control of Marry or the baby... only Marry and God ... It took the man ... haveing a fit for Gods angles to talk to him.. He had to ask God for the chat... His faith was not stroge enough and he needed Gods angles to soften his jealousy and ego... He questioned Gods acts... Marry seemed worried she would not be good enough for the child of God... true mothers heart...
This should tell men something ... Women are the greatest gift God has given men... but men's egos are fragile... Women want to be there partners as it should be.... But men want control and use women using religion's belief's that they twist and interpret every thing to lead us to believe we are low... why? jealousy .. even angles fell from heaven over that little sin.... jealousy....
You need no man to speak with God or angles of God ... Women have been doing it since Eve and Adam .... you need no man to be important to God .... You need a man's seed for a family, and a man needs a woman's egg and body to carry a baby for a family... Men need more than a woman needs... but men's egos are fragile... Some need to feel all powerful and forgot that woman was made to be his partner, the giver of life, and his partner, mate, and friend .... She is to be respected loved and cherished .... The worst part woman have given into this false teaching and let men fall .... With out woman.. no man would walk the earth... We (woman) give birth to the world...
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Permalink Reply by annammc on -
I think that the Mormon church believes "they" are tolerant of others, but I have come to feel that it is more of a judgement that they are passing rather than true tolerance. After I joined the church, I was told that we should be tolerant because, "they don't have the truth, they don't know that what they're doing is wrong, etc." I find this extremely condescending and in turn, judgemental. But, of course, all Mormons know that they're the only ones with the big picture - the truth. Well, I am probably not even asnwering this in the way you were asking, but I think that Mormons are not truly tolerant, they're just a judgemental and often hypocritical. Of course, I am tolerant of them because I know that generally speaking, I have never met a Mormon who is deliberately trying to hurt others through their religion - they just have a distorted view of life as a result of growing up or converting into it. It's hard for them to think outside of the box. So, I say don't pretend to be someone you're not - the mantra I came to believe in as a convert was that "we" tolerate but share the real truth. Everyone should do that and Mormons need to accept it from others as easily as they dish it out.
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