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We are an online social community of former mormons, ex-mormons, ex-LDS and sympathizers. Stay C.A.L.M. - Community After Leaving Mormonism
What is Tolerance?
To preface I would just like to add that this is a difficult topic to articulate so I will do my best.
As I have many friends and family members still in the Church I am finding it very frustrating to keep their wish of remaining silent and supportive of their decisions. Said silence is supposedly the quintessential display of "tolerance" in our society, a permission of religion.
If you look up the definition of tolerance you can actually find many widely varying definitions. Most are as follows:
"a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion,
nationality, etc.,differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry."
Notice how the definition here assumes that the two parties differ by opinion, not fact. To me, the Church is more than harmless opinions. It is mobile, it hurts, it steals, it deceives, it knocks on doors and judges. In this case it is not a difference of opinion but of fact. Facts which one party (mormons) refuse to acknowledge. Tolerance in this case and by such a definition cannot be defined. What then is tolerance?
To further illustrate imagine a kkk headquarters next to a mormon church. It may be socially acceptable for the surrounding community to oust the kkk but not the mormon church. Both are racist by definition (a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement). If you need more info on the topic read 2nd Nephi and many other church publications. Yet in the end the mormon church remains as it is more cunning and less physical about its racism then the kkk.
I personally don't feel there are shades of gray to racism. Racism is racism no matter how you view it.
So in this context are we supposed to remain tolerant until the point which racism becomes physical and violent?
I realize that there is nothing I can say, nor any fact I can present to change anyones views. What I have come to realize, because that church has the capacity to hurt and deceive people outside its doors, it is wrong to remain silent.
Views: 433
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by MikeUtah on -
I no longer adopt the belief that any obligatory morality exists other than the unique and individual values we choose for ourselves. While I recognize that the church may harm others, it is the right of LDS members to choose to subject themselves to such a belief system and culture and only they can choose for themselves to wake up and leave it. Any efforts I exert to intervene on their behalf will mostly be fruitless due to the nature of mind control and belief biases. Such interventions can potentially do more harm than good, possibly sending the member to dig in their heals even deeper. For this reason, direct approaches and arguments with believing members are not recommended by Steven Hassan or other cult experts. Better to plant seeds through encouraging free thought, expression and being authentic yourself, which may awaken in them a longing for their own authenticity and putting truth above being comfortably duped.
Another word that can be substituted for "tolerance" or even "acceptance" is respect. I may not agree with the LDS church, its doctrine and its methods for maintaining a false belief system, but I can respect their right to believe as they will and seek happiness according to the dictates of their own hearts, even if it is obvious to me that those "dictates" are planted by an external entity. I would rather live peaceably and happy by "live and let live" than by going on another crusade to convince others to my way of thinking, as I once did as a missionary. Just my 2 cents.
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Permalink Reply by Cousin It, SF, Q on -
I tend to agree with Micah. While I don't agree with the LDS Church anymore, they have every right to be here on this planet. On the other hand, though, sometimes my anger flairs up (IE: When I found out they endorse treatment for gays) and I want to torch the buildings down. If you want to preach tolerance, live and let live.
-Wfs
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Permalink Reply by Liber Mens on
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But is it really a choice? If you are sheltered from differing opinion, shunned if you dont conform and are taught since you were young and impressionable that faith (believing things that have no objective support) is actually a good thing, where is the choice?
Choice requires critical thinking and correct information about the options.
Where I live women "choose" to wear the hijab...because if they dont their family will ostracise them and they will be judged as sluts.
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Permalink Reply by Cora Judd on -
Hamsonb! This is such an important issue. I'm the only Ex-mormon in a HUGE, tri-state TBM Mormon clan. I have decided that "tolerance" does not require that I shut up and withhold what I bel
ieve to be truth (so they can live their lives unimpeded by reality). Tolerance only requires that I listen respectfully and understand them before I speak. In fact, the more I read about ethics, the more I think such speech is an imperative.You'll never know who among your family and friends will take courage from your speaking against a cruel allusion or a baseless assumption.
<------- That guy!
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." - George Bernard Shaw
"True wit is nature, to advantage dressed; what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed" - Alexander PopeI respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. - Wilson Mizner
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.--Christopher Hitchens"The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls." -E.C. Stanton
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Well said. Also, I think Sam Harris addrsses this nicely with his point in "conversational intolerance."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXg-yy-riEg&feature=youtube_gdat...
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Permalink Reply by Cora Judd on
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You may like this as well...
Expressing One's Views on Religion
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=fi&page=expres...
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Permalink Reply by chime on -
My Dad who was LDS, from a long line of mormon pioneers, was a great example for me and my siblings. While he was an active mo, he disliked the missionary program in the church.
A common phrase of his in our house was "leave people alone and let them make their own decisions about thier own lives." (the actual phrasing was..."leave people the h**l alone, and let them make their own d**n decisions about their own d**n lives!)
He didn't like the church pressuring us as members to be missionaries. He enjoyed people for who they were. He did not spend his time trying to change other people, and he sure didn't care for those who did.
Once I talked to him about it all and he said, "People are adults and they have a right to live their own lives the way they see fit without someone coming up to them telling them how they ought to live!!!"
He was adamant about it. And he lived that. He worked hard, took care of his responsibilities and kept out of other's business. And expected other's to do the same. To him, that's what being an adult was.
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Permalink Reply by chime on
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I belong to a large extended mo family and we just don't go there. We just respect each other and let everyone live their own lives, complete with their own beliefs.
Also, having taken it upon myself to work myself out of the church, I fully understand the extreme pain that collapsing your belief system can be. For me it was like a huge structure of glass shattered to the floor around me, when I stepped out, cutting me. That structure had been my WHOLE life. And boy was I lost when that happened, but I was also found at the same time. And I had to go about building a new structure that worked for me. I didn't know where or how to start. But I did. I started trusting myself. And that was my foundation for my new structure.
The fear of crossing over to the other side, the side that ...what's that phrase for it???...denies the Holy Ghost or something?...that incurs some horrible punishment with it... I had a suspicion that it was not so, but had a HUGE, huge, huge, huge, huge, fear that it was. So basically, I accepted my very, real to me, possible punishment. And then I gathered everything in me and stepped out. I crossed that bridge. Now I look back from the other side. And the view is very, very almost unimaginably, unimaginable to my mo relatives.
I don't "push" my sisters...etc... because when you're not ready, you are JUST NOT READY. I used to see people like me (people who left the church) as, "under the influence of the evil one". And if I pushed them, I am sure they would see me that way.
When the student is ready, the teacher will come. Pushing things on people, eh? I don't think so.
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I agree it os painful, but then dont you think we should do what we can to prevent that sort of pain to future generations? Dont we have some level of obligation to be honest, especially where kids are concerned?
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Lies are bad for people, dfor families, for communities, for humanity.
Lies should not be tolerated. It should not be tolerated that people be told untruths or taught to believe things that are not true--that cannot be established as true through objective evidence.
If something is true, you should believe it. If it is not true, you shouldnt. If we dont know if something is true or not, we should admit that and suspend judgement.
Its not complicated. Religion tries to claim that we should be tolerant, but it is anything but tolerant. It uses this shield of "you cant attaxk my beliefs" as a way of controlling people.
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Permalink Reply by Enlightened on -
In my enthusiasm at first finding out what a bunch of lies I had been led to believe I wanted to share with all and sundry (intolerance)..BIG mistake. I came to realize pretty quickly that for anyone to find out the real truth about mormonism it must be something they want to do and any display of intolerance about their beliefs will just make them dig their heels deeper into it. I also came to realize that there are many, many out there who KNOW it's all a bunch of hogwash...yet prefer to remain in it - reasons being varied for why they choose to do this.
© 2012 Created by MikeUtah.
